The Making of Dare Me: Megan Abbott from Writer to Show-Runner
Megan Abbott, photographed by Drew Reilly
Support Megan Abbott at www.meganabbott.com
Unlock the secrets of teenage intensity and the dark allure of cheerleading in this riveting episode where we sit down with the creator Megan Abbott of the hit series Dare Me (2019). Dive into the intricate world of character development, the challenges of translating the book to screen, and the unique bond formed by a cast portraying the high stakes of competitive cheer.
Megan Abbott’s passion for authentic storytelling shines through as we discuss the importance of crafting real characters that viewers can relate to, rather than the polished perfection we often see on screen. We dive into the power dynamics at play within the series, the behind-the-scenes moments that shaped the show, and the editing magic that brought it all together.
Please Enjoy:
Liv: Thank you so much for joining.
Megan Abbott: I'm so excited too.
Liv: Oh, I'm trying not to fangirl right now because I am obsessed with Dare Me. Like, it has been my obsession ever since I watched it.
Megan Abbott: Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad it has a life, after its life that makes me so happy.
Liv: Yes, of course. Like, I watched it during the lockdown when I was on Netflix. It was right after I watched Cheer (2020).
Megan Abbott: Oh, yes, of course. Yes. It was. That was that auspicious timing. It felt like.
Liv: Yeah, yeah, I was so invested in cheerleading after that.
Megan Abbott: Like, you never thought you would be so into it.
Liv: I never realized how much work went into it. I always thought of it as, like, high school cheer.
Megan Abbott: Yes. That was the big revelation when I was writing the book when I was growing up, it was just sideline cheer that you would see. You know, it hadn't become yet, like, the gymnastic and the daredevil aspect. So that was one of the things that fascinated me about it.
Liv: It is fascinating because it's like they put their bodies through so much.
Megan Abbott: Yes. When I was researching it, I talked to a lot of cheerleaders, and they would show me their injuries. Some of them sent me x-rays, to show what had. They were so proud of it, they were so proud of their battle wounds that, they loved to talk about what they had been through and the surgeries, the ACL surgery, all that kind of stuff. So that was really huge for me when I was developing it. I had to get that bravado in there.
WHAT HEADSPACE WERE YOU IN WHEN WRITING
Liv: What was the headspace you were in when you were writing it? What made you want to write about something like this?
Megan Abbott: Well, at that time, the book was over 10 years ago, so it just felt like I wasn't seeing a lot of what I felt. It was like being that age reflected in the culture. It was sort of that time when, which is most times until the last few years, which is teenage girls seen as sort of superficial and vain and, sort of self-obsessed. And that was just never my experience of it. That to me, was the most intense time of my life. And it was so complex, the relationships between and among young women, like this explosion of energy and feeling and desire. And I just wanted to write something that felt true to that and the kind of darkness in teenage girls, which is, immense and powerful. So I really wanted all that to be in there. All that feeling that, you know, I guess we're supposed to sort of, paper away when we get older and, leave it behind. I mean, I can go back to that time in my head so quickly. It's always that time in your life when you figure out who you are and always feels like it's still living there in the back of my brain. I don't know if it was that way for you, if that felt, like a particularly vivid time.
Liv: Growing up, you realize how seriously you took life back then and how serious everything felt and how everything was so monumental and like, life-changing.
Megan Abbott: Yes. And it kind of is because you do put yourself in, you know, or certainly I did. You're in risky situations, you're testing yourself. You don't necessarily know what certain dangers are. And you're also so curious about them. So in some ways, it can have a huge impact on the rest of your life. But it certainly feels that way regardless that, each day in school, when I was in high school, it was pre-social media, so the spread of information worked so differently. You know, it's so much harder now for you all growing up post that. But, you would have so many ups and downs throughout the day, so much drama and so many changes and allegiances. It just felt like a lifetime had passed between first bell and last bell sometimes.
Liv: Yeah.
INSPIRATIONS WHILE WRITING
I also read that you were inspired by, Twin Peaks (1990), Bring It On (2000), The Virgin Suicides (1999), and Sharp Objects (2006), which is one of my favorite shows ever, but, what about those shows and movies inspired you?
Megan Abbott: This was before Sharp Objects when I wrote the book, but certainly Gillian Flynn, who is a friend of mine, we have very shared interests, so we often talk about, that, that sort of dark girl world. The Virgin Suicides certainly was a big piece of it because that writer, Jeffrey Eugenides, is from my hometown, so it's set where I was from, Grosse Point, Michigan. It felt so eerie reading it and then seeing the movie because the movie's much more girl. It's more girl than the book, felt so vivid. and Twin Peaks really changed my life. I was so young when it came on the air. Now it seems impossible to me that that was ever on network television, a show that weird and dark. But, that was the time. And it felt like I finally was seeing something that reflected how it felt inside my head. So those were all big parts of it. And also I wanted to have this sort of epic love triangle at the center that would feel so monumental. Twin Peaks and The Virgin Suicides, too, they both were ones where the parents don't exist at all. Like, in the show, we have the parents because you have to. You have to have more characters, but in the book, there are no parents at all because their world was just about each other. So, yeah, all of those were influences, especially tonally with this sort of dark and sexy energy. And I love Bring It On. It was certainly a big inspiration for the cheer, but it's definitely a different energy. It's much more, positive, but they're certainly competitive in that. That was the first thing I'd seen where you see competition cheer vs sideline cheer. I just watched so much of it on YouTube at that time, too, so you could really see it all up close and see how dangerous it was, to give it that kind of darkness. Those were all huge, huge inspirations. and also just generally, like, remembering those sort of, I guess we'd now call them toxic female friendships that you can have at that age where you're so enmeshed that, it's probably not good for you. But they're sort of important, I think, and they live in you forever after.
TRANSITION FROM WRITING THE BOOK TO A TV SHOW
Liv: What was the transition from writing the book to then writing for the TV show? Because I read that it was supposed to be a movie, or you thought about it?
Megan Abbott: Yes, it was going to be a movie. It almost got me a feature, a PG-13 movie, which meant I had to change a lot of it. But it was really in that kind of Mean Girls (2004) era. It was originally gonna be a movie with Natalie Portman as the coach, and then it was gonna be Jennifer Aniston, and it really came very close to getting made. So I already turned it into this 2-hour movie, but then the movie didn't go forward. Then we sold it originally to HBO, so it turned into a series. So that really involved building out the world more because you have to have more characters. It was meant to be an ongoing series, so it slowly started to shift. But to me, the main thing to keep always was the triangle at the center of it. That was always going to be the main piece of it. That was the constant. Certainly, when it was gonna be a feature, it was dark still and kind of mean, but it had a more poppy tone, you know, and a little more swagger. But then when we were able to turn it to TV, there was more opportunity to go back to the dark and bring all that in. So it was a slow process, but I thought, very rewarding. Once we started to bring in my co-showrunner Gina and other writers, and eventually the actors, they all brought so much, and so it started to fill out naturally from there.
Liv: Yeah, it's almost like you couldn't picture it being any other way.
Megan Abbott: Yes, exactly. Yes. Our cinematographer, I just saw her the other night, we still keep in touch, and, she was a big speaker going back to Twin Peaks. Huge Twin Peaks fan, too. So we talked about it all the time, sticking in all these little homages to Twin Peaks, and we used to play Laura Palmer's theme on set when we were shooting. And so, yes, a lot of the stuff that originally had been an inspiration came back when we moved it to TV. That was certainly true. Then it was just a matter of how we're gonna tell the story of the murder, the death, and, how to pace it out. If it had originally been for TV, we wouldn't be able to do what we did. But you got to have a lot more sex and violence and language and TV by the time it became a TV show. So it gave us a lot more freedom, too, which was good.
Liv: Yeah, that seems like, at the time, obviously not the greatest part, but overall, like, I'm sure you're more grateful that it turned out this way.
Megan Abbott: I think so. When you're trying to fit something in 2 hours or really like an hour and 40-minute movie, and you have big cheer sequences and things like that, you don't have that much time to sort of build. Particularly Beth, who's such a complicated character. All throughout, the goal was I didn't want her to be a mean girl, like a stereotypical mean girl, that she would be, in her eyes, she's the hero of the story. And that's what I told Marlo Kelly, who plays her, so beautifully, is that you are the hero. Once we moved to TV, it was easier to have that kind of complexity, more time.
Liv: I couldn't imagine it being a movie, to be honest.
Megan Abbott: No, me either. Me either.
Liv: And I also can't imagine these characters being played by anyone else.
WHAT WAS THE CASTING PROCESS LIKE?
What was the casting process like? Did you envision these people as these characters when you were writing it?
Megan Abbott: No, it took so long. I have to say, the casting is so hard, because not only did you have to get everyone right and be great, but they had to be able to be athletic, for the cheer. Certainly, for anyone on the squad, had to probably be 18 and older so they could shoot. When they're younger than 18, you can't work them as many hours and all that. But more than that, it was about the chemistry between, especially the central 3. Once we had her Herizen and Marlo, then we had them go to Toronto and film a chemistry test, where they would sort of hang out together for a half day, and we would see, because they had to have that. We had to be able to see that chemistry between them. and then the coach, Willa, who was such a revelation to me, was in some ways the hardest of all, that she had to be very cool and mysterious. We had so many actresses who were great, but, we would have to keep saying, or the director for the pilot would keep saying, stop smiling. She would never smile. She was so tough. She was so cool. So enigmatic. And Willa was the one who got that right away. I told her, you're a Hitchcock blonde from the Alfred Hitchcock movies. Like one cool customer. She doesn't let you see her sweat. She had to have that aspect and not be afraid. There's that scene, I think it's in the pilot, where she squeezes, the stomach of one of the cheerleaders. A lot of actresses get kind of, especially today, uncomfortable with that. But of course, we're not endorsing that behavior. So we had to have an actress that was not gonna bristle at that or get uncomfortable. Being unlikable, I guess, is what I'm saying. That was true with Beth, too. You can't want anyone to like you. We were adamant about that, that we're not gonna care about that. We're gonna make them real, and then people can decide if they like them or not.
Liv: I appreciate that from a viewer's perspective, because I feel like a lot of times, especially now, characters are written to be perfect or, morally good, as much as that's, like, fine. I do love a morally grey character or character that just seems more human and real, and I really appreciate that.
Megan Abbott: Yeah, no, I think that's all right. It draws you in because none of us are perfect. We may think we're enjoying it when we're seeing those characters always do the right thing, but we're not connecting to them in any real way because none of us are like that. It was always more important that they be interesting than likable. That's what makes you lean in. It’s what makes me lean in when I watch something, trying to understand somebody. Even a few years before, and probably now, you have to explain to network executives why characters do things. It's very hard to explain to network executives why a 15-year-old girl would definitely do this, but she definitely would. So when you have to start to justify stuff like that, it kills all the creativity. But we were lucky that we didn't get that kind of interference for Willa.
Liv: Had you seen her in Scream (2015)?
Megan Abbott: I'd seen her in Scream, and a few other things, and she came in very late. We got the self-tape I wanted. It almost felt like we were in trouble because we watched so many self-tapes, we talked to so many actresses, and it really was one of those, like, hail Mary things when it came in. The casting director said, I've been wanting Willa to do this self-tape, but she was shooting something. I can't remember what she was shooting at the time, but she just finished it, and she wants to get it in there. It was like, thank God, because she was just so perfect and she so looked the part, and she just had that kind of gravitas. Even though she's so young, really the age Coach is supposed to be, she felt so imperial, she felt so regal. But it really was the hardest. We were thinking of going different ways. It was a problem because if you start to cast it older, it doesn't make the relationship work with Addy as much. It's become something else. Addy's attraction to her and Coach's awareness of it starts to get weirder. If she's in her late 30s, say. So a lot of it was also that they had to have that chemistry and you had to believe that they had this connection. Also, you had to have an actress that would be willing to express that she had no interest in her child, which was another thing. I mean, she's not a bad mom, but she's not that into it. Willa had no problem. She understood Coach very well.
Liv: And the smoking in her office.
Megan Abbott: Yes. So great, so great. She loved that stuff. She would come up with other ideas and she was scary to some of the cheerleaders. The actresses who were real cheerleaders, who were not playing one of the main parts, were very intimidated by her, which was great.
Liv: Yeah, that's awesome, because I had seen her in Scream and I was obsessed with Scream. It was everything to me. So then to see her in this role, it was, completely different from what I'd seen. And she just blew me away. She did such a good job.
Megan Abbott: Yeah. And I think, I don't want to speak for her, but I think she was so glad for this because to play an adult. She wanted to make that leap and be seen differently, too. I think that was really part of it. Even though her legions of Scream fans were really helpful to us because it got a lot of people to watch the show. Yes, I did notice.
Liv: Well, I think the show would have been popular no matter what, just because the actors were so committed and so into it that you couldn't even tell that they were acting. It just seemed like they were just in it fully.
Megan Abbott: Yeah, and that's what you want, right? You want that kind of intimacy. That's sort of what that chemistry is about. Steph Green, who directed the pilot, where we really had to set all that up, understood it so well and had been a gymnast and had an intense relationship with her coach. So she carried that experience into, a lot of people on the show had experiences, I mean, not like this experience with their coach, but knew what it was like to be involved in a sport or dance or something where you throw everything into it and everything is about pleasing that charismatic person at the center. So that was, that was a big piece of it.
DID YOU GIVE THE ACTORS ANY REFERENCES?
Liv: Did you give any of the actors any references or any, characters to base off of or like shows or songs or something like that?
Megan Abbott: We did. We made a playlist. I made it. I had made a playlist way back when I was writing the book and I just kept adding to it. And then when we had our great music supervisors, I gave it to them to find music to license that would mirror the stuff that we couldn't afford. So we gave everyone that and then we gave them The Virgin Suicides, books, movies. In particular, there was a scene that was very much inspired by this scene in David Lynch's Mulholland Drive (2001), so we had everyone watch that. And Marlo, she would make arrangements to sit with me for like a half hour to talk about Beth, particularly what she goes through in the latter half of the season. She had a binder this big, with notes she'd written down about Beth. She would ask me these really specific questions and I was always trying not to give her too much because I wanted her to bring herself to it. To not overload her, we would talk about why she's doing what she's doing to my mind and that she's in love and her heart is broken. The whole first season she's operating from this place of pain. And we talked about that a lot, certainly.
Liv: Yeah, I definitely felt very connected to Beth. I didn't watch it when I was in high school, but I bet if I did, I would feel even more of that connection. But with her family, I feel like I went through something pretty similar and I think that was captured so perfectly. Like, outside of the cheerleading aspect, I think that was such an important storyline.
Megan Abbott: I'm so glad because someone as tough as Beth that doesn't come from nowhere, that comes from something at home, and you often don't know with girls like that, what's going on behind closed doors. And often when you do, everything makes so much more sense. That was a huge piece of the puzzle, which is not in the book because we don't have any parents in the book. So that was really, good to sort of fill out the sort of drama with her parents and even getting those locations. That house that she's in, which was a real house in Toronto. As soon as we saw it, we knew that it should be a very cold place, it's not a warm home-like Addy's home. Stuff like that was really important for the actors to get them in that headspace. And certainly for Marlo, she would really get in the zone, and, that would help her get in that place.
Liv: Yeah, like that dark basement.
Megan Abbott: Yeah,
Liv: So much work, I could tell, went into the set design, everything, it was so beautifully done.
Megan Abbott: Yes, Michael Bricker, our amazing production designer, was just a marvel. He really understood what those spaces should look like. For Will's apartment, he had me draw a picture of what I thought it looked like in my head, and then he made it. I mean, it was uncanny. All that was a set and that long hallway that you see a lot in it. It was all a set he built, and we had a limited budget, but he really understood how much for the tone to have that sort of Twin Peaks, it had to have this sort of lush darkness. Everything had to have that. So he had certain colors, you couldn't have red other than lips and things like, there should be no red and things like that. He was really great at that so that it would feel consistent. That stuff was all new to me. I had never show-ran before, and so it was so great to see what they all could bring to it. Costume design was a big piece because, Amela our costume designer, didn't want them to not be on trend or whatever, because that's always sort of important. She didn't want them to look like they were coming out of a fashion ad, they should look like real girls. Costumes are about the character, and that what Coach would wear had to be very simple and not fussy and had to be very sleek, and she would find these beautiful jackets and these beautiful boots. So all that stuff is so helpful when you're trying to create the world that you don't have to count on your words alone, that everyone's going to be bringing something to it. We had an amazing prop guy that was so great with all the things the girls are holding, like their water bottles.
Liv: The stickers all over the water bottle.
Megan Abbott: Yeah, exactly. Yes. He just would fill it. Everything would be covered. If they opened those bags, they would be filled with stuff too. Everything. Attention to detail.
Liv: Their lockers and all those little things. I've seen this like, 5 or 6 times, and the more I watch it, the more I'm pausing to look at little stuff like that because I just love it so much.
Megan Abbott: Yeah. So sort of the way that hallway was also a set that you see, with the glass room in the center. All of that was, so meticulously done. Michael Bricker, our production designer, had the idea to have all the Post-it notes on it. When you're a novelist, you write alone, but when you start working in TV, you have this team and everybody is on it and creates this amazing stuff. Certainly saw that with the cheerleading. All the cheerleaders, the squad, they were a real squad, and they would come up with ideas. We had a great choreographer that would work backwards into stunts. We needed something to happen, and she would figure out what the stunt was and they had to practice all the time. So, we had to be very concerned that they not get injured and have us lose days. All that helps it feel vivid when you're watching it. I hope that was always the goal, and that would reward, hopefully, watching it more than once.
Liv: Yeah, and this was before Euphoria (2019). And when I watched it, I was like, I'd never seen anything like that in terms of color, cinematography, the slo-mo, everything. So I think all that was, definitely a pioneer for that type of vibe in a show.
Megan Abbott: Oh, so glad. Yeah. We really wanted it to be cinematic. We always talk about how it shouldn't be realistic. It should be how things feel for these girls and that's certainly something that Euphoria does, too. But we did it first.
Liv: Yes. You guys are first and I will make that very clear because as much as I love Euphoria, I definitely remember watching Dare Me and thinking, this is new. This is something that's gonna be more popular as time goes on. Like you said, you wanted to capture how it feels. And I totally picked up on that, too, with especially, the slow-mo of them walking down the hallway. I was like, this is exactly what, in their head, they think that they look like, and they think that they're the coolest people ever. I thought that was so smart, and I just loved it.
Megan Abbott: Yeah. Cause it's sort of that power that they feel they have. And we needed to believe in that, we needed to be in that space where. That nobody else in that school exists except for them. And not in a bad way, that kind of narcissism of youth, where the whole world is this party tonight. I think everyone remembers that or can be provoked to remember it. If you try to evoke that, the party tonight is the most important thing that's ever going to happen to us, and in some ways it is. So that was a big piece of it. We would get ideas from the actors. Some of them were only a few years passed being teenagers, so that was part of it, too, was getting how they would respond to the scripts.
WERE THERE ANY REWRITES?
Liv: Was there like a lot of rewrites or was it pretty much stick to the script?
Megan Abbott: Pretty much, because once we started shooting, you end up having to change things. So the scripts change because you don't have the actor for the episode, for instance. And, that happened a couple of times, or we find a new idea or a director brings in an idea. So you end up changing some things, and then sometimes you see something an actor can do and you want to give them more opportunities to do it. That was certainly a big piece of it, too, was giving, particularly Beth, who could really hold the screen, to make sure that she had enough space for that. So it does shift. Usually the fundamental story never changes, but there's a lot of subtle dynamics. We didn't realize this, but we really need to see Coach and Addy together having fun. Some of it was like making sure viewers understood because we don't see Addy and Beth before, where they were so connected. So a lot of it was making sure that you feel that they once had this connection and at best, feeling the loss. But since we don't see it, how do we understand that they had this intense, intense love and that now we're in its wake. That was sort of figuring it out, often visually showing them together or seeing, footage of them from before, like the little movies and pictures, and having other cheerleaders comment on how things were before.
Liv: The bracelet.
Megan Abbott: The bracelet, definitely, which is the biggest piece of it. That bracelet. We spent so much time figuring out that bracelet and how much to show. Yeah, that was, like, a dominant piece at that. At the wrap party, we were all exchanging bracelets like that. Yeah, we had all been through it.
Liv: That's amazing.
GETTING THE CAST TO BOND
I feel like the cast got really close just from having to train and get to know each other in that type of environment. What were some things you did to get them to bond?
Megan Abbott: Certainly the cheer practice, which started well before the show started, really bonded them. So Beth and Riri became really good friends and Beth and Tacy, Marlo and the actress who played Tacy became best friends on the show. They had to play arch enemies, and so a lot of stuff like that would happen. But then they were young, so they would go out on their own. Don't ask, don't tell what they're up to in Toronto, but they were clearly connected, and they would work so hard for the physical stuff that it all happened naturally. They're working such long hours. Those are 18 hours, days some days. So that happens organically. And I think Willa, certainly with both Matt and Will, those actors would work privately, but she really tried to keep separate for acting purposes so that she wouldn't be too familiar to them, and that she would still seem intimidating in some ways to them. So she sort of kept herself apart in a way that I think was good for the show.
Liv: Wow, she's so cool. I just love her so much. Like,
Megan Abbott: Yeah, she's the coolest.
Liv: That is so smart of her too, to keep her distance so that they don't get so comfortable because that would bleed through on screen.
Megan Abbott: Yes, I really think so. You know, when you're dealing with all that female energy in one place, she would just go back to her trailer and between shots, and I think it was really good. She and Herizen, because they had so many scenes together, they really had a connection, they were so electric in their scenes together. But other than that, she kept it apart.
Liv: That is so cool.
BEHIND-THE-SCENES STORIES
Any funny behind-the-scenes, stories, or mishaps that ended up in the show?
Megan Abbott: At the rap party we had quite a long blooper reel. It was a lot about a lot of falling, I have to admit, because there was so much cheer. There was a lot of stunts gone awry, luckily, safely. It was honestly such a fun experience, and I think the sort of intensity of it really carried over. It was very emotional at the end, I think, for everybody, because they'd gotten so close and had all worked together, body to body, in a way that isn't always true in the show. You had to count on each other to keep each other alive, to a certain extent. It made it very sad when we realized that the pandemic started, that we weren't going to get to go back and finish the show, we had a big zoom with, like, 50 of us on it, and everyone was telling stories and remembering things, and it was really sweet. A lot of people on the show had friendships like the Beth and Addy one, and connected with it in really deep ways. So I think that was a piece of it, too. It was a good bunch. Not a bad apple among them.
Liv: I love the line, “We have to make them think they want it.” I don't know if that's exactly what it is.
Megan Abbott: Yes, I think that's right. That sounds right.
Liv: And it was Sarge Will, who was saying that to another one of the recruiters in the bar.
Megan Abbott: Yes.
Liv: I think that line is like, an overcompassing for the whole power dynamic, Colette's angle and, the similarity between the two. But it's like, men and women, what made you want to write about that dynamic and then how it presents in women, vs how it presents in men.
Megan Abbott: That's such an interesting point. I hadn't thought about it quite that way, but I definitely knew that there was a connection between Will and Coach. It’s sort of, in some ways, both preying on these young people. It's always interesting to me. Both coaches and military recruiters are usually only 10 years older than the students, sometimes less. They remember high school very well, and one of the inspirations behind the book originally was a story about a coach who was having a relationship with a National Guard recruiter. In her school, they were sort of all hanging out together, the cheerleaders and the national guard. That kind of thing was really interesting to me. That sort of the predations on young people, not in the obvious ways, but there's something. Their youth and beauty and power is so intoxicating. I remember talking about this in the pitch for the show, it goes both ways. And then for the young people, whether it's the football players who might be recruited or the cheerleaders, that person has everything they want because they're 10 years old and they're free. They can do whatever they want. They have money in their pocket, they can party. They seem like the coolest people in the world. So there's this desire on both sides to have what the other has. And I think the gap between those is in some ways, the darkness of the story. It can be a troubling relationship. Certainly Coach, I wouldn't call her a good influence, ultimately, even though in some ways she means well. And for the recruiters, they're taking advantage of people and young men in economic circumstances that makes them vulnerable to that. So that was a really big piece of it, and a delicate one to sort of pursue. So we tried to weave that in there. I'm so glad you picked that up. I'd forgotten all about that. That was in the original pitch.
Liv: Yeah. I definitely think it was so interesting to see, because the first time I watched it, I think I was really into the visuals of it all. But then it took me a bunch of watches to really appreciate the power dynamics and how different, yet similar you presented them. I thought that was just so good.
Megan Abbott: Right. It is a lot about, you know, with Will and Coach. Their connection is very intense, and partially because of that, and partially because they knew each other when they were that age, so it gets very complicated. In the book, they didn't. That's different. They didn't know each other before. It's just an affair. But in the show, I think we really wanted to sort of make that link.
Liv: And that adds a whole other level of turning back time, in a way.
Megan Abbott: Yeah.
Liv: Kind of getting stuck there.
Megan Abbott: Yes, exactly. Especially when you spend all your time in that world. You're 27, 28, but you're in high school all the time. You never left. In some ways, you never left. Coach never expected her life to be like this, you know, with a kid and, the problems of a marriage and money and all that stuff. Nothing seems more appealing to her than going back to high school.
Liv: Romance and just, the simplicity of that.
Megan Abbott: Yes, yes. Exactly. Exactly.
THE EDITING PROCESS
Liv: Selfishly, as an editor, I want to know about the editing process.
Megan Abbott: We had 3 editors. They were all amazing and it was especially the pilot we wanted to run. The pilot is the hardest because that's when you're really setting the tone. And I had never quite seen what magic editors do. Until I saw how they could completely change a scene with a different cut. With just sort of moving some things around, often cutting infinitesimal amounts of it, or slowing things down. And it was a big piece of it too, in terms of the cheer and in terms of these big sequences and also giving moments. All the editors were very good at this, these intimate moments. Giving space for them in the episode. A lot of, silences and close-ups. That was really important, that it wouldn't feel frenetic when it shouldn't. When we should really feel almost like we're peeping through a keyhole. And the editors were so good at that. And working with the music supervisor, to intensify that. That was the most dazzling to me. They say this about movies, but I think it's true with shows too. There's the movie you write, the movie you shoot, and the movie you edit. And they're all different. That certainly was true with the edit. Some episodes needed a lot more, tender, hands, tender editorial hands than others. But they all got the rapid references, and so they were wonderful. But, yes, I'm so, in awe of that. Talent is not what I could imagine having.
SHOOTING EPISODE 7: SPLIT PERSPECTIVES
Liv: What was it? Episode 7, I think, when it was like, split 3 perspectives.
Megan Abbott: Yes.
Liv: What was that like?
Megan Abbott: That was. Boy, that was, we were so excited about that. And then all of a sudden, it was like, now we have to do this, but it felt so important. That we see how differently the world looks for all 3 of them. Especially because in some ways, we're mostly seeing Addy and a bit of Coach from their point of view. But Beth, in particular, we wanted to show what it was like to be Beth. And that was the critical episode for us to see how things feel to her, that she looked so tough and safe, steely. So, it was, the scene with the injury, right, with Riri gets her teeth knocked out. That you see from these different perspectives. It felt like we were shooting that forever. It was so exciting, though, that it would look so different and that it would be edited differently. The pace of it, it was really like masterclass, in film for me, seeing how that worked. And I think the actors really liked it, though it was hard. They would be like, wait, whose point of view is this? Because you don't, you know, you don't shoot in sequence. And so they had to be reminded, you know, sometimes because you're moving quickly. So they would have to adjust their performance because this is how Beth sees Addy, not how Addy is, that kind of stuff. So that was a real brain-buster.
Liv: Yeah. That must have been difficult to film, but obviously very worth it, because I definitely noticed that in some POVs, the Coach's face would be different, but it's only because Addy was paying attention to her more than Beth was or something.
Megan Abbott: That's right, that's right, that's right. She sees her in this golden way, and so that's a big piece of it, too. We had a lot more that we just ran out of time for, in part because some of the sequences were so interesting that we had to cut other stuff. But originally, you know, we were really going to town with. With particularly, Beth's, life was like, that she would, in some ways, have this whole mystery life that no one knew about. But, we ran out of time, as the editors know. That was the other thing is originally editing this for commercials, which meant really, really tight episodes. I mean, if we had been doing it originally for Netflix, where most people ended up seeing it, we probably would have had a little more freedom. But in some ways, maybe the time limitations made us be more rigorous.
Liv: Oh, wow. I didn't know it was made for TV with commercials.
Megan Abbott: Yeah, so it was originally for TV. It was made for a USA network, basic cable, but they didn't have a streaming network at the time. This was before Peacock, which it would have been. So we sold it to Netflix at the same time. Netflix was always a co-producer on it. We constantly had these things we didn't have to worry about. We didn't have to put in those breaks. It was a delicate thing, but, it was sort of always the last thing we would be thinking about, and then we'd have to remember, oh, my God, where are we going to put the commercials?
Liv: That's nice. We don't have to worry about that anymore, really.
Megan Abbott: Yes. No, those days, hopefully, are gone.
Liv: That's so interesting.
FILMING SOME OF THE HARDER SEQUENCES
What was it like filming some of the harder sequences, obviously the accident, and then I want to know about the ice bath scene!
Megan Abbott: Boy, that was, that was very hard. You know, I tell you, one of the hardest things about that scene is that everybody, it had to be so mean and I think it was hard for some of the actresses, to not be appalled at what was happening, because it was only, what is that? 3rd episode, that's right. So everyone was still figuring things out and we would do some cuts where everyone was worried about Tacy. No, no, it's not supposed to be like that. They had to be, following Beth. Beth decides. So that was still somewhat, establishing the tone. I mean, some of the stuff later with what happens to Beth was definitely the most delicate stuff. We were always determined that we wouldn't see anything that happened to her. But still, Marlo had to live through that, and that was a big piece of it, too. So I think that was wanting to honor that was, certainly. And give her the space to sort of find what was important. There was a lot of heavy, heavy stuff in it. I mean, with Will, and with the crime scene, the death scene, it was pretty intense. Zach who played Will, had to get a model done of himself. It was pretty gruesome and you do see quite a bit of it on camera. It got darker, it got darker as it went. But then so did the girl’s humor on set, people were having fun. That is reminding me of, you'd ask for any anecdotes. I remember we shot so many scenes in Will's hallway, and sometimes we would be shooting, we would have the video village where we were all sitting, was behind the door. We would be shooting Beth looking through the peephole. And one time our script supervisor, to scare Marlo, opened the door in the middle of it. She saw us in there, and then everyone laughed. But, yeah, we had to take some of the intensity off of it for sure. Then some of the more intimate scenes with Addy and Beth and Addy and Coach, I think we thought may be difficult just because there's a lot going on. This is before intimacy coordinators, but everyone was into it. Everyone seemed to get it and to believe in the story. So all that was simpler. I mean, honestly, the hardest stuff was the football games, because there were a lot of moving parts and time was really money, which is why we got so few football games.
Liv: Yeah. The amount of extras that you had to get together for those moments must have been a lot.
Megan Abbott: None of us knew anything about football, but luckily we had somebody who did, who could make them look like they were doing something.
Liv: That's funny. I like that.
FILMING LOCATIONS
Where did you film? Was it in high school in Toronto?
Megan Abbott: It was. It was in Toronto. Yes, it was in a high school. Most of the hallway was a set, but the outdoors and the field was a high school, and a lot of the houses were in suburban Toronto. Some of the grimier parts of town were, a little further out of Toronto. But it really was the closest to Detroit or Rust Belt, which is what we wanted. Toronto really had that look with the factories and the way the light worked. So it ended up being great for us because we really didn't want to sacrifice that. If we had shot it in Atlanta, which is where a lot of things get shot, it would not look like the Rust Belt. It would look like Atlanta. So much of it is about budget in those cases. But Toronto really did have, like, old factories, old buildings. It was cold when we needed to be cold, and when we didn't need it to be cold. So it turned out to work. It worked well.
Liv: That's nice. With the power of social media, I feel like the show has become a cult classic because people talk about every single day online that I see, and I've followed people who are obsessed with it. There are so many people actively out there right now who love it. What do you think about the internet's love for the show?
Megan Abbott: It thrills me, it was such bad timing for us, and we were so ready to finish the story, and also because of the way Netflix, they don't put anything on there to tell you. I mean, I'm sure some people thought it was a limited series when they watched it.
Liv: I did!
Megan Abbott: Yes, of course. Why would you not? You know? Because it's 1 season. I was just so worried that it would just sort of disappear. A lot of shows have just disappeared. We're lucky that this ended up at Netflix. A lot of these other shows, they just take them off the platform. Especially to see their love for the characters, who meant so much to all of us. it's just so invigorating every time. We talk about it all the time, because a lot of us still keep in touch regularly about how great it is to see, and makes us feel like we did something. We did something that people connected to. And that's really the only thing that you want, really.
Liv: Yeah. Like, there's shows out now that, I can't relate to a single character, and I just feel like it's really rare to have a show that I feel like I can see myself in all of them.
Megan Abbott: Oh, that makes me so happy to hear. I do worry about that. You know, we had this window, when they were just taking a lot more chances with shows, and that's the window we got in on. I do often worry that that window is closed again, and that we're not going to see these intimate stories about young women, the same way. So we'll be hopeful and hope that the window opens again, for more stories, because there's so many more to tell. A lot of stuff that is just beyond the cliches. It's very hard. When things get more commercial interest win out, and you just start to feel like you're seeing stereotypes again, and that's what we all don't want.
Liv: No, I appreciate real characters, and that's why I think the show is so popular to this day, because it's just real with characters that you only come across every so often in shows, I think.
Megan Abbott: Yeah. Oh, that makes me so happy. You made my day.
Liv: I just love this show so much. Like, I was so happy when you said, you want to talk about it because I was like, I could write a 10-paragraph, a 10-page essay about the show.
Megan Abbott: That's so great. No, it thrills me. I will spread the word on our group thread so everyone, I'm sure, will want to listen and share when the episode comes out. We love to hear it. It makes us feel we did something good.
Liv: Definitely.
HAVE YOU SEEN EDITS ONLINE OR FAN ART?
Have you seen edits online or anything? Fan art or stuff like that?
Megan Abbott: When the show first started airing, I saw a lot of it. We had the NBC Universal team send us stuff. I don't see it as much, but when I do, it makes me so happy. Especially the love for Beth, because she means the most to me and to see that, she sort of still exists as a character out there really, really sort of thrills me. And that there would be any kind of homage to her or fanfiction for her, that kind of stuff is so great to see.
Liv: Yeah, there's so much, edits, fanfiction, all types of media about this show. There's a lot of people who love, Addy and Beth together. What do you think about that?
Megan Abbott: Yes. I mean, I always thought that Addy would find her way back to Beth. That was very real. And that Addy had a passing crush, but that they really, had a much deeper bond. That kind of bond you only get at that age. So I love to know that people are still bringing them back together, where they belong.
Liv: Yeah, you could just tell their connection was so real. And my heart broke when that flashback, I just started crying so hard.
Megan Abbott: Yeah, you know, it. It’s just that we really wanted to save that for late in the show because we wanted it to land like a gut punch. We know in some ways it was real for Beth by then, but we needed to see that it was for Addy, too, and that in some ways, she's blocked it out. She's sort of got this new attraction, but that doesn't go away, and that's part of the pain of their relationship. It's just such a flood of feeling all the time.
Liv: Very intense, but so well done. So well done.
PLAN FOR SEASON TWO
Did you have a plan for season two?
Megan Abbott: Yes, we had it all mapped out. We had what was going to happen with the mystery, what was going to happen with Kurtz and everything. So we really had an ongoing plan. It was always meant to be an ongoing series, so we still have it. The love was there for them. It was just bad timing for us, certainly with the pandemic, but also with the streaming situation. So, we would have kept it going as long as we could have, for sure.
Liv: In another universe. The show is still going on.
Megan Abbott: Yes, maybe a new death, maybe. We didn't have a plan for that, too. So there are many mysteries. Many mysteries in Sutton Grove have yet to be solved.
Liv: Is there anything you can share about that?
Megan Abbott: Well, we definitely had more plans for the squad and certainly for Beth. Beth to sort of rise to power again. But I'd be open to anyone's fanfiction version of what could happen in the long run or their cut of imagined futures for them.
Liv: Yeah, I definitely got into fanfiction after because I was like, I need more. Like, what's gonna happen?
Megan Abbott: Yeah, it's great. Oh, that makes me so happy to hear.
DID YOU TAKE ANYTHING FROM SET?
Liv: Did you take anything from set?
Megan Abbott: Yes, many things. We had to make a large bracelet, the hamsa bracelet, for that surreal scene, you see. So I have it on my wall. I did take that. I have Beth's cigar box that she opens, some things like that. I think towards the end, people were discreetly taking. I'm sure more than a few of them took their cheer uniform. We didn't count them afterwards. So, I think there was quite a bit of souvenirs, towards the end, because we had so much.
Liv: That's so special. I love when people preserve things from their show because so many things get put away and you gotta keep that memory, I think.
Megan Abbott: Absolutely. Yes. It is like high school, you know, in that way, it's very nostalgic.
Liv: Yeah.
THERE IS SOMETHING DANGEROUS ABOUT THE BOREDOM OF TEENAGE GIRLS
Okay, so this podcast is called Bored FM, and my Instagram is called Boredxm, because I love the concept of boredom. And that was very explored in the show with “something dangerous about the boredom of teenage girls.” When I heard that first line, I was like, okay, this show is made for me, because I've just been so captivated by that and that feeling and what you do to get out of it or what you do to navigate it. What can you tell me about that line?
Megan Abbott: That's, ah, yeah, you know, that was one of the first lines in the book. That's the gift where it just comes out, it felt so true. I particularly remember how critical boredom is at that age. It's the curse. At that age, you want things to happen, but actually, that's when things get interesting, and in some ways, it was easier when I was growing up. There are less distractions. We were bored a lot more. But it creates yearning, a yearning for a bigger life, a yearning for bigger feelings. It also is a kind of stillness, a sort of appreciation of beauty and emotion. And it's just sort of when you create yourself in your bored moments, in some ways, you sort of have to sort of sit with yourself, which is the hardest thing in the world. And I think that's what makes it dangerous, too. That craving for stimulation at that age is so intense, and so the boredom feels, especially intense. I mean, it's always true, but we just got into so much trouble just driving around bored, you know, at that age, driving around stuffed in each other's cars. I guess all the possibilities in that both good and bad just always fascinates me. So I love that it's a big part of your concept because I think there's something in it almost meditative, too. You really have to go deep in those moments. There's something in that.
Liv: The amount of soul-searching you have to do to be okay with being bored.
Megan Abbott: Yes. yes, yes.
Liv: Very interesting, because I started my account when I was 18, and I think when it started, it was very much like, I want to do everything, and now I'm like, it's okay.
Megan Abbott: Yes. Yeah.
Liv: I'm 24. I don't need to be, like, stressing about everything like this, but I just love that line so much. And I think that “there's something dangerous about the boredom of teenage girls.” I just love that line so much. Was that, like, one of the first lines you?
Megan Abbott: It was. It was one of the first lines in the book. I knew that Coach was going to say it to Addy and I could hear her say it when I wrote it felt like she was just at the age where she would remember that and know that because she's not that much older. She's just a few years older than you are. You know, you're still very in touch with that feeling. But you're old enough to know the dangerous part of that sentence. That's where you crave experiences. You haven't had any experiences, and you have all your firsts at that age, and you don't know what's coming, and you don't always know what to be afraid of or to be worried about. So there's a kind of dangerous freedom in that.
Liv: Yeah.
HOW DO YOU NAVIGATE YOUR BOREDOM?
My last question, sadly, because I could talk to you for hours about this.
Megan Abbott: So much fun. It's a great walk down memory lane for me.
Liv: My last question is, how do you navigate your boredom?
Megan Abbott: Boy, that's a great question. I tell you. I mean, as a writer, the main thing I do with my boredom is, I listen to it. It usually means that something's brewing, an idea. And I usually would take a very long walk with my headphones on, like big, old-fashioned headphones, because it's usually, my brain's racing for something it hasn't found yet. And so I try to go into a place of stillness because our lives are so frenetic now. There’s so much stimulation just in the palm of our hand, and so much of our life is online. So I try to be really still in those moments, and that is when the best ideas come, I find.
Liv: Yeah, when you're not forcing yourself to do it, and you just let it come when it feels right.
Megan Abbott: Like, exactly.
Liv: That's something that every guest I've asked has said. Like, it just comes when it comes. You can't force it. I loved this conversation, and I love asking people about boredom and finding similar things.
Megan Abbott: It's a great question, and I think that's just right about not forcing it, because that's a pressure you put on yourself and that, and the beauty of the boredom is that there is no pressure. This is, this is quiet. I mean, this is. Yeah, this is very compelling because then you're unconscious, is coming forward. You're unlocking something. and it's just stuff that tumbles out, but you have to be in that still, quiet space to have that happen.
Liv: Definitely. I think you need to have moments of downtime to then have that creative.
Megan Abbott: Yeah. Yeah. Give yourself permission to, too. You know, I think sometimes we always feel like we need to be doing something, but, it's the between times where the ideas come.
Liv: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for this conversation.
Megan Abbott: This was so much my pleasure. Let me know when it's up, and I'll spread the word. But this was such a delight. Thank you. And thank you so much for your kind words about the show. I will tell everybody, and they'll love it.
Liv: I love it so much. Like, I'll never stop telling everybody I know to watch it. It's so good.
Megan Abbott: Great. All right, well, hopefully we'll talk again someday, then.
Liv: Yeah.
Megan Abbott: Bye. Bye. Thanks again.
Liv: Bye. Thank you so much.
Listen to our full conversation on Spotify here or watch on YouTube here.
Support Megan Abbott at www.meganabbott.com
